OT: Office365/Azure Transformation guidance.

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ahobbs posted this 2 weeks ago

Hey all
In the past 18 months we've embarked on an initiative to adopt cloud first approach with regards to new applications and services. 
Majority of our Dev/Test environments and new applications are now hosted in Microsoft Azure and we leverage AADConnect and ADFS to authenticate to applications/services in Azure to provide that seamless experience. We have also adopted SaaS too, with the adoption of solutions such as ServiceNow.
We still have a big (200 servers on-premise) that we're looking to migrate to Azure with the long term goal of just being Cloud based server hosting. That's the aspiration.
Our CIO wants us to start looking at Office 365. This would compliment our exist strategy however it raised a discussion around whether our existing IT structure is capable of supporting Office 365. At the moment the technical teams are very much siloed in our way of working e.g dedicated teams supporting specific environments, and our skills are somewhat duplicated as a result. We're wondering if anyone on this list has embarked on a Azure/Office365 journey and whether you shoehorned the service within your existing team and experienced bottlenecks, or do you change your IT structure to complement the new ways of working and deliver efficiencies? If so, what were they? Did anyones role change as a result?
Any guidance appreciated.
Amanda

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michael1 posted this 2 weeks ago

How do you support desktops and associated infrastructure today?

 

If you have an Exchange team – you’ll still need one with Exchange Online (although probably not as large, after the transition is complete). Same for Skype,

SharePoint, etc.

 

Any presumption that “moving to the cloud” reduces the need for support or the complexity of that support is simply wrong. With Office 365, you only remove

the complexity of server management and patching.

 

(I’ll also point out that it removes CONTROL and REPORTABILITY. If there is downtime, you are helpless and you really have no idea of what is going on.)

 

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robertsingers posted this 2 weeks ago

From what I have observed being in an existing team in a cloud migration is a lot like being a monk at Lindisfarne as the first wave of vikings stormed up from the shore.  Most existing IT terms work in an old world that has be burnt to the ground to serve the end users of cloud services.
On Wed, 5 Dec 2018 at 13:19, Amanda Hobbs <ahobbslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hey all
In the past 18 months we've embarked on an initiative to adopt cloud first approach with regards to new applications and services. 
Majority of our Dev/Test environments and new applications are now hosted in Microsoft Azure and we leverage AADConnect and ADFS to authenticate to applications/services in Azure to provide that seamless experience. We have also adopted SaaS too, with the adoption of solutions such as ServiceNow.
We still have a big (200 servers on-premise) that we're looking to migrate to Azure with the long term goal of just being Cloud based server hosting. That's the aspiration.
Our CIO wants us to start looking at Office 365. This would compliment our exist strategy however it raised a discussion around whether our existing IT structure is capable of supporting Office 365. At the moment the technical teams are very much siloed in our way of working e.g dedicated teams supporting specific environments, and our skills are somewhat duplicated as a result. We're wondering if anyone on this list has embarked on a Azure/Office365 journey and whether you shoehorned the service within your existing team and experienced bottlenecks, or do you change your IT structure to complement the new ways of working and deliver efficiencies? If so, what were they? Did anyones role change as a result?
Any guidance appreciated.
Amanda

--
Robert Singerse:  rsmsingers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 

ahobbs posted this 2 weeks ago

We don't subscribe to the view that moving to the cloud reduces the need for support, nor do some of the cloud solutions we've adopted eliminate the need for on-premise components as solutions such as Airwatch have required us to install appliances but we have noticed that moving to the cloud for certain applications/systems has reduced some of the overheads such as server management and patching as you've mentioned, so can we be more efficient in terms of what our staff do/responsible for.
I don't want to lose headcount, but when our CIO is asking how much of the job role changes by removing the complexity of server management and patching, I'm wondering what other skills/areas they could branch out to in order to fulfil their role and be more efficient. There also appears to be overlap between Networks and Azure/Office365. At the moment the bottleneck is that resources are controlled by different teams, and trying to resource is a pain. Bringing them under one team could help us deliver those service improvements. I guess I'm just curious whether the old school mode of IT Structures really work within the new cloud based world.


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robertsingers posted this 2 weeks ago

The old school IT structures generally don't work well in an on-premise world either.  You see that when you try and stand up an agile development team in an organisation that considers itself "mature".
On Wed, 5 Dec 2018 at 13:49, Amanda Hobbs <ahobbslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
We don't subscribe to the view that moving to the cloud reduces the need for support, nor do some of the cloud solutions we've adopted eliminate the need for on-premise components as solutions such as Airwatch have required us to install appliances but we have noticed that moving to the cloud for certain applications/systems has reduced some of the overheads such as server management and patching as you've mentioned, so can we be more efficient in terms of what our staff do/responsible for.
I don't want to lose headcount, but when our CIO is asking how much of the job role changes by removing the complexity of server management and patching, I'm wondering what other skills/areas they could branch out to in order to fulfil their role and be more efficient. There also appears to be overlap between Networks and Azure/Office365. At the moment the bottleneck is that resources are controlled by different teams, and trying to resource is a pain. Bringing them under one team could help us deliver those service improvements. I guess I'm just curious whether the old school mode of IT Structures really work within the new cloud based world.


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webster posted this 2 weeks ago

Yeah, like Citrix trying to shoehorn all their apps and appliances into a Cloud model. That isn't working out very well for the customers.

 

Regarding MBS' comment on lack of Control and Reportability; when Citrix did a forced global reset of almost every ShareFile account's passwords over the weekend, there was no advanced warning, no status update

on any Citrix portal, no emergency blog entry, no nothing. Customers started receiving emails yesterday, AFTER Citrix did a blog entry at 11 AM Eastern which is FOUR days AFTER they did the password resets.

 

I received my email notification at 3 AM today. I had already reset my ShareFile password on Thursday, using LastPass, after the Marriott breach but my account was still reset. I thought LastPass had messed up.

There was no notice on the log in screen stating there had been a password reset and I needed to change my password. Multiply that millions of users and accounts across the world and welcome to the world of no control and no reportability. Even as a CTP with

direct access to the ShareFile team, they never responded to any of our requests for info on what was going on until 1045 am yesterday. We got a notice on Slack saying the info was embargoed until 11 am. WOW! Thanks for the 15-minute advance notice.

 

I just love the world of Cloud. (sorry, O365 still doesn't offer a sarcasm font).

 

Thanks

 

 

Carl Webster

Citrix Technology Professional Fellow

| IGEL Tech Community Insider | Parallels VIPP

http://www.CarlWebster.com

The Accidental Citrix Admin

 

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kebabfest posted this 2 weeks ago

Hi Amanda,
Shoehorning isn't the right word as the techies will feel they are doing somebody a favour and might do a sloppy job.
If exchange has been kept to a decent level then a hybrid migration will make it painless. You can leverage your aadconnect and adfs infrastructure and use that for the sso experience. I would suggest having an office365 migration team which encompasses somebody from networks (set up Express route etc. ), messaging (setup of hybrid, mailbox  migrations etc.), desktop, compliance. E.g verifying that templates,macros  etc. Work in new versions of office. Also there are issues with cross compatibility with viso etc. which will need ironing out. Overall though the migration itself should be straightforward and once completed you can redeploy your exchange specialists to something else as quite frankly exchange support required after the migration is done is minimal. The big thing is making sure you have a decent internet pipe with good resilliance(expressroute is great if u can get that) as without that you will be in big trouble.e.g people complaining and cursing email when the problem is generally your internet breakout.
On Wed 5 Dec 2018, 00:20 Amanda Hobbs, <ahobbslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hey all
In the past 18 months we've embarked on an initiative to adopt cloud first approach with regards to new applications and services. 
Majority of our Dev/Test environments and new applications are now hosted in Microsoft Azure and we leverage AADConnect and ADFS to authenticate to applications/services in Azure to provide that seamless experience. We have also adopted SaaS too, with the adoption of solutions such as ServiceNow.
We still have a big (200 servers on-premise) that we're looking to migrate to Azure with the long term goal of just being Cloud based server hosting. That's the aspiration.
Our CIO wants us to start looking at Office 365. This would compliment our exist strategy however it raised a discussion around whether our existing IT structure is capable of supporting Office 365. At the moment the technical teams are very much siloed in our way of working e.g dedicated teams supporting specific environments, and our skills are somewhat duplicated as a result. We're wondering if anyone on this list has embarked on a Azure/Office365 journey and whether you shoehorned the service within your existing team and experienced bottlenecks, or do you change your IT structure to complement the new ways of working and deliver efficiencies? If so, what were they? Did anyones role change as a result?
Any guidance appreciated.
Amanda

kebabfest posted this 2 weeks ago

Well with office365 the need for a messaging team goes away after migration. They could reskill in compliance as there are loads of office365 compliance features which are excellent that your compliance dept wont have a breeze about configuring. These guys will understand what is needed under the hood to set this kind of thing up after an office365 migration. Also reskilling in share point online is a way of going if you are doing a complete digital transformation and moving away from the traditional file share access etc.
On Wed 5 Dec 2018, 00:50 Amanda Hobbs, <ahobbslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
We don't subscribe to the view that moving to the cloud reduces the need for support, nor do some of the cloud solutions we've adopted eliminate the need for on-premise components as solutions such as Airwatch have required us to install appliances but we have noticed that moving to the cloud for certain applications/systems has reduced some of the overheads such as server management and patching as you've mentioned, so can we be more efficient in terms of what our staff do/responsible for.
I don't want to lose headcount, but when our CIO is asking how much of the job role changes by removing the complexity of server management and patching, I'm wondering what other skills/areas they could branch out to in order to fulfil their role and be more efficient. There also appears to be overlap between Networks and Azure/Office365. At the moment the bottleneck is that resources are controlled by different teams, and trying to resource is a pain. Bringing them under one team could help us deliver those service improvements. I guess I'm just curious whether the old school mode of IT Structures really work within the new cloud based world.


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michael1 posted this 2 weeks ago

I haven’t seen that to be true (“the need for a messaging team goes away”) at my clients, at all. We tend to see growth in tickets on email changes, rules,

EOP configuration, etc.

 

Server management goes away, sure; but none of the rest of it.

 

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kurtbuff posted this 2 weeks ago

We're migrating to O365, so this discussion is very timely.
A somewhat OT question: Your mention of Visio compatibility issues is a bit worrisome - we're heavy users of it here. Can you point me to any documentation on that?
Kurt

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kebabfest posted this 2 weeks ago

I am surprised to hear that. In general I am seeing a move away from email towards shared workspaces etc. For the most part people outside work have really stopped sending emails years ago and I think corporations are starting to catch up. The main use of it internally in organizations I see these is simply ass covering. 
On Wed 5 Dec 2018, 18:06 Michael B. Smith, <michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
















I haven’t seen that to be true (“the need for a messaging team goes away”) at my clients, at all. We tend to see growth in tickets on email changes, rules,

EOP configuration, etc.

 

Server management goes away, sure; but none of the rest of it.

 

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jheaton posted this 2 weeks ago

Kurt,

 

There has been, historically, a problem when mixing versions.  So, if you’re using Office 365, you won’t be able to nicely install and use on-prem Visio, or Project.  You’ll need to migrate your on-prem licensing to the Visio and Project

Online versions.

 

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barkills posted this 2 weeks ago

The last part asserted is not true—you do not need to migrate on-prem licensing to the online versions to enable mixed Office versions (where those mixed versions are volume-licensed Office and subscription-based Office). You can install/use

volume-licensed Visio or Project on the same computer as Office ProPlus/365. The Office Deployment Tool enables this type of scenario.



https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/deployoffice/use-the-office-deployment-tool-to-install-volume-licensed-editions-of-visio-2016 is documentation that talks explicitly about how to do this.

 

I’m not sure whether dealing with ODT is the Visio compatibility issues intended by Eoin. A possible other issue is if you want to enable real-time co-authoring—that requires a Visio Online Plan 2 license plan for the relevant users. But

that’s additional functionality that you don’t currently have, so I wouldn’t think it is what he was intending.

 

Brian

 

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kool posted this 2 weeks ago

+1

 

One thing to consider is that most orgs move from on-prem to EO via a hybrid configuration where it is a simple migration. Guess what? You can’t tear down your on-prem servers

while running in hybrid (you can reduce the capacity but have to leave most of the roles intact), so you still have on-prem servers to nurture. MS says they are working on a path to move from hybrid to cloud-only but there is no timeline for when this will

be available.

 

There is a thread right now on the Office365 mailing list asking a simple question: how to see what mailboxes a user has been granted delegated rights to? This is just one

example of what should be a simple task but is actually incredibly painful because EO is so immature in its management capabilities. Ditto for all of the Office 365 workloads. The management tools are mostly pathetic. As an example, we’ve turned off self-service

Office group creation because of the dearth of naming and lifecycle management controls. Naming controls were recently introduced but they are completely inadequate for our needs. So if someone wants to create a Team site they have to open a request to the

O365 team to create an Office group for them (a Team site is anchored by an Office group).

 

Office 365 is being enhanced at a furious pace. New management features are being added but they aren’t keeping up with new end-user features. We spend an inordinate amount

of time just discovering and learning about new features. A small fraction of the new features are listed in notifications sent to the O365 admins. We saw recently that MS planned on spamming all of our users with emails highlighting nifty new O365 features.

Fortunately there was a global switch to turn this off before it was launched. Many new features are rolled out turned on which leaves us scrambling to figure out the ramifications.

 

Bottom line: certainly not less work but definitely less visibility and control!



 

    Eric



 

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robertsingers posted this 2 weeks ago

I talk to quite a few organisations who have drunk the kool aid and are accelerating towards a cloud first nirvana.  They are always critical that most of our services rely on there being a locally authenticated users for functionality like single sign on.  Every time I ask, "how are you planning on delivering secure printing?" to which I am met with blank stares.  There are a whole range of things that need a hybrid environment to work, and will do until we have new hardware and new protocols, or even using 802.1x further up the stack.
On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 13:28, Eric C Kool-Brown <kool@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
















+1

 

One thing to consider is that most orgs move from on-prem to EO via a hybrid configuration where it is a simple migration. Guess what? You can’t tear down your on-prem servers

while running in hybrid (you can reduce the capacity but have to leave most of the roles intact), so you still have on-prem servers to nurture. MS says they are working on a path to move from hybrid to cloud-only but there is no timeline for when this will

be available.

 

There is a thread right now on the Office365 mailing list asking a simple question: how to see what mailboxes a user has been granted delegated rights to? This is just one

example of what should be a simple task but is actually incredibly painful because EO is so immature in its management capabilities. Ditto for all of the Office 365 workloads. The management tools are mostly pathetic. As an example, we’ve turned off self-service

Office group creation because of the dearth of naming and lifecycle management controls. Naming controls were recently introduced but they are completely inadequate for our needs. So if someone wants to create a Team site they have to open a request to the

O365 team to create an Office group for them (a Team site is anchored by an Office group).

 

Office 365 is being enhanced at a furious pace. New management features are being added but they aren’t keeping up with new end-user features. We spend an inordinate amount

of time just discovering and learning about new features. A small fraction of the new features are listed in notifications sent to the O365 admins. We saw recently that MS planned on spamming all of our users with emails highlighting nifty new O365 features.

Fortunately there was a global switch to turn this off before it was launched. Many new features are rolled out turned on which leaves us scrambling to figure out the ramifications.

 

Bottom line: certainly not less work but definitely less visibility and control!



 

    Eric



 

show

kurtbuff posted this 2 weeks ago

Brian,

Thanks for that link. Will peruse it, and pass it on to the helpdesk guy.

Kurt

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